07:40:00 <shapr> So, what was the fix for installing gitit from hackage?
12:30:48 <bonobo2> Hi all, I just started my first ever happs app :)
12:33:32 <bonobo2> Any first time advice for beginner?
14:07:17 <stepcut> bonobo2: have a great time!
14:07:41 <bonobo2> yep, having right now :)
14:47:01 <McManiaC> hehe
14:56:57 <bonobo2> you know what? it works perfectly even under Windows!
15:12:12 <McManiaC> hmmm
15:12:16 <McManiaC>   <title>417 - Expectation Failed</title>
15:12:26 <McManiaC> why do I get this with lighttpds proxy module?
15:15:10 <McManiaC> with "curl -F \"content=foobar" <myip>"
15:25:45 <stepcut> bonobo2: of course!
15:26:12 <stepcut> McManiaC: no idea
15:27:28 <McManiaC> 16:18          dy server.reject-expect-100-with-417 = "disable"
15:27:28 <McManiaC> 16:19    McManiaC whats that good for?
15:27:29 <McManiaC> 16:21          dy i dont know, but it 'hides' that message
15:27:31 <McManiaC> from #lighttpd
15:27:32 <McManiaC> lol
15:30:55 <stepcut> http://redmine.lighttpd.net/issues/show/1017
15:32:29 <McManiaC> ah okay
15:32:32 <stepcut> xesh
15:32:34 <stepcut> bah
15:32:43 <stepcut> missed the M- on that one..
16:21:24 <shapr> Hey, I can delete files in archive/ right?
16:21:48 <shapr> I just found that hpaste is using 11GB on my virtual server.
16:21:53 <shapr> and it's all in archive/
16:22:08 <shapr> specifically /home/sorear/hpaste_state/archive/
16:22:35 <shapr> 4471 files ...
16:23:45 <aavogt> > 11 * 1024 * 1024 / 4471
16:23:46 <lambdabot>   2579.8112279132183
16:24:08 <aavogt> those are big spammy pastes?
16:24:25 <coshapr> aavogt: I think it's that the entire state is copied each time.
16:24:58 <aavogt> oh, it uses happstacks's serialization?
16:25:19 <aavogt> you shouldn't have to keep old checkpoints around
16:25:45 <coshapr> I got 11GB back from deleting them.
16:31:06 <shapr> aavogt: y0 wassup?
16:31:27 <stepcut> shapr: no idea.. archive is something hpaste specific
16:32:07 <stepcut> ACTION sometimes wonders what happened to sorear
16:32:53 <aavogt> Cabal is hiding internals from cabal install such that the best answer is probably copy-pasta
16:36:33 <shapr> Yeah, I wonder what happened to some of the good folk like TheHunter, sorear, Marvin--, dennisb and many others.
16:37:38 <stepcut> at least we are still here :)
16:38:10 <shapr> Yeah, happily!
16:38:17 <shapr> And sometimes, I know what happened to people...
16:38:43 <shapr> sethk was working for BUGLabs, keeping GHC built for the BUG, he had ulcer surgery, and died during the procedure.
16:40:01 <shapr> Back to more cheerful things in life, I think I now have enough space to finish building gitit
16:40:41 <shapr> Oh, I had an amusing thought...
16:41:04 <shapr> The recent bug tracker written in Haskell, why not put up a public instance of that for each cabbage?
16:44:34 <stepcut> people object to doing it automatically -- because the authors may have a different bug tracker, or may not check it at all, leading to people feeling as if filing bugs is a waste of time
16:44:53 <shapr> I don't like that.
16:44:55 <stepcut> but making it an option could be cool
16:45:03 <shapr> I think a lot more of hackage should be .cabal driven
16:45:13 <shapr> For example, include a bug tracker url, or get the default
16:46:12 <stepcut> that seems reasonable
16:46:51 <stepcut> though, it still doesn't mean that the package authors will look at the bug reports. Though if they got an email when a bug was submitted that would probably help
16:47:35 <stepcut> for the end users it is certainly easier if there is a single way of submitting bug reports for all packages
16:48:19 <shapr> Yup
16:48:36 <shapr> We'll probably need to add cryptographic signatures soon.
16:51:36 <stepcut> alas, I only have time to focus on happstack, so someone else will have to do it ;)
16:51:44 <shapr> Yup
16:51:58 <shapr> I always have too much to do...
16:51:59 <stepcut> perhaps patch-tag could get involved somehow
16:52:10 <shapr> Most recent distraction is setting up a hackerspace here in Northwest Alabama.
16:52:26 <stepcut> any luck finding the other hacker in Northwest Alabama?
16:52:32 <shapr> Actually yes!
16:52:38 <stepcut> nice!
16:52:47 <shapr> And he's just like me, except fourteen years younger.
16:52:55 <shapr> Seriously, it's really scary.
16:53:01 <stepcut> so when he dates 17 year olds, it's not creepy ;)
16:53:06 <shapr> :-P
16:53:40 <stepcut> I am thinking of starting a chicago electronic musician coop :)
16:53:44 <shapr> Awesome!
16:53:55 <shapr> Do you post any of your music?
16:54:01 <stepcut> shapr: soon
16:54:24 <shapr> I just want to hear anything, jam sessions or whatever.
16:54:25 <stepcut> shapr: aiming to have something to post by april
16:54:49 <shapr> I downloaded Mike Doughty's live shows from etree years ago, only recently got hooked on them.
16:55:02 <stepcut> http://www.n-heptane.com/jeremy/mp3s/musicbox%20No.%202.mp3
16:55:16 <stepcut> that is one of the few things I have written that was actually good :)
16:55:28 <shapr> Sounds like lullatone, I like it!
16:55:44 <shapr> You know Pajama Pop?
16:55:49 <stepcut> nope
16:56:26 <shapr> http://www.last.fm/music/Lullatone
16:56:33 <stepcut> I also have a joke band that covers the same song every halloween (writen by my friends 7-year old sister)
16:56:35 <stepcut> http://www.n-heptane.com/jack/Halloween%20is%20Coming%20(2009).mp3
16:58:01 <st3pcut> heh, this lullatone stuff is nice
16:58:22 <shapr> You have two different desktop connected to the 'net?
16:58:29 <shapr> You told me why you have two clients before, but I forget...
16:59:08 <st3pcut> my mac desktop and my linux laptop
16:59:30 <st3pcut> the good speakers are on the mac, so I switched machines to put on the music
16:59:41 <st3pcut> here is a song from my joke goth band
16:59:42 <st3pcut> http://www.n-heptane.com/jeremy/mp3s/Don't%20Cry%20(Kate).mp3
16:59:45 <st3pcut> gothedral
16:59:59 <st3pcut> not done yet
17:10:28 <shapr> MusicBox No. 2 is very nice.
17:11:38 <shapr> Don't Cry Kate stops suddenly...
17:12:58 <stepcut> yes.. that's all we wrote so far
17:14:50 <shapr> Why not FLAC or OGG?
17:15:03 <shapr> I get unhappy about the psychological compression in mp3.
17:15:32 <shapr> Nice voice in Don't Cry Kate
17:16:43 <stepcut> because logic pro 9 has an 'export as mp3 option?' -- plus easier to make it a ringtone on your phone ;)
17:17:45 <shapr> Ah
17:18:15 <stepcut> for real releases you will have your choice of download formats
17:19:20 <shapr> I bought this sennheiser headset years ago, and I couldn't stand to listen to lots of my MP3s after that.
17:19:27 <stepcut> heh
17:19:35 <stepcut> I have three different sennheiser headsets :)
17:19:47 <stepcut> unfortunately, the cable is bad on two of them
17:19:51 <shapr> Hard to fix?
17:19:59 <shapr> What models?
17:20:07 <stepcut> no, on those the cable is replacable -- but it is $25
17:20:11 <shapr> Ah yeah.
17:20:16 <McManiaC> V0 mp3s are fine tho
17:20:17 <stepcut> so I bought a third set for using on the train... but it was only $28
17:20:24 <McManiaC> no need to go flac or similiar :>
17:20:25 <shapr> On the other hand, if you have Sennheiser 550s or 650s.
17:21:10 <stepcut> HD 25 SP
17:21:41 <shapr> Ah, nice!
17:22:07 <stepcut> they need a new cable and new foam pads on the ear pieces
17:22:17 <shapr> I have the PC 150 headset, not high end, but not bad.
17:23:08 <shapr> Oh, I bought Bose Quiet Comfort 3 headphones for working at Raytheon, they were just passable. But then I tried Etymotic ER6i in-ear isolaters (or whatever they're called) and they're AWESOME!
17:23:29 <stepcut> the cheap ones I have ar ethe HD 202.. but they double as ear muffs in the winter, which is really nice
17:23:37 <shapr> I had some bizarre side-effects, but the sound quality and external isolation is INCREDIBLE!
17:24:08 <McManiaC> side effects?
17:24:51 <shapr> They're in-ear, right?
17:25:43 <shapr> So clean your ears first. If you naturally produce unusually large amounts of earwax, and you haven't had your ears cleaned in five or six years, and you don't think about it ahead of time...
17:26:02 <shapr> Then stuffing these into your ears will cause the earwax to get compacted against your eardrums and you'll be somewhat deaf until you get ear lavage.
17:26:22 <McManiaC> haha okay
17:26:46 <shapr> I was somewhat deaf for about two weeks because of compacted earwax issues.
17:27:05 <McManiaC> I know that feeling :S
17:27:07 <McManiaC> :D
17:27:09 <shapr> I still use the ER6i isolators, but I clean my ears regularly now.
17:27:14 <shapr> McManiaC: You're somewhat deaf?
17:27:25 <McManiaC> compacted earwax issues :P
17:27:29 <shapr> Ah yes.
17:28:00 <shapr> Usually I have decent to excellent hearing, it was very weird and unsettling to have sudden hearing loss.
17:28:23 <stepcut> I looked online to see if I could fine cheaper replacement cables, but instead I found these, http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_59&products_id=302
17:29:13 <McManiaC> I need a new mp3 player
17:29:19 <McManiaC> any recommendations? :D
17:29:28 <shapr> How do you use it?
17:29:49 <shapr> I bought a sansa clip 4gb for use while unicycling. It's light and shock resistant.
17:30:12 <shapr> And it's a standard usb mass storage device
17:30:14 <McManiaC> not very often, but sometimes for running etc
17:30:19 <stepcut> shapr: I also have the HD 414 headphones somewhere
17:30:38 <shapr> Ah, I'm jealous :-)
17:31:00 <shapr> The solution to better audio quality is not $600 cables, it's pushing digital sound as close to the eardrum as possible.
17:31:39 <shapr> imo..
17:31:47 <McManiaC> http://www.hoh.de/MP3-Player/SanDisk/SanDisk-Sansa-Clip-4GB-FM-schwarz_i872_100697.htm this one?
17:32:09 <shapr> Yup, though that looks a bit expensive to me.
17:32:33 <McManiaC> okay
17:32:34 <McManiaC> ^^
17:32:52 <shapr> They're $45 USD here, and the euro is beating the dollar, yeah?
17:32:54 <stepcut> shapr: yeah, the $600 cables are funny
17:33:36 <McManiaC> shapr: I think we have higher taxes or something
17:33:40 <stepcut> I recommend the nexus one mp3 player
17:33:47 <shapr> McManiaC: Are you in .de?
17:33:57 <shapr> .se has 25% VAT, ouch
17:34:01 <shapr> I spent five years paying that!
17:34:01 <McManiaC> yeh
17:34:10 <McManiaC> hehe
17:34:22 <shapr> Isn't .de in the top three of highest VAT?
17:34:25 <shapr> I forget...
17:34:40 <McManiaC> 19%
18:50:33 <stepcut> dcoutts: what is the url to the new hackage server source ?
18:50:58 <stepcut> dcoutts: I am ready to look at the improvements you made to authentication and see what could be moved into happstack itself...
18:57:28 <shapr> Any reason I shouldn't swap out apache for gitit?
18:58:00 <stepcut> um.. they aren't really the same thing..
18:58:43 <stepcut> but go for it!
18:58:46 <McManiaC> lol
18:59:05 <shapr> I mean, should I worry about security or anything else?
18:59:28 <stepcut> dunno. I have not used gitit
19:00:05 <stepcut> but if you want to run gitit, then having apache there doesn't really help with security as far as I know
19:00:37 <shapr> ok
19:03:29 <aavogt> apache could do http auth
19:09:28 <stepcut> aavogt: happstack can do http auth...
19:10:19 <aavogt> I mean that it might be easier to trust apache to do that, especially if other stuff on that site depends on apache anyways
19:10:37 <shapr> It's ScannedInAvian.com, it only does stuff for me at the moment.
19:12:04 <stepcut> aavogt: dunno, I have seldom found anything with apache to be 'easier' ;)
19:12:21 <aavogt> quite true
19:12:32 <aavogt> easier iff it's already set up
19:18:39 <McManiaC> I switched back to lighttpd + happstack instead of only happstack today :>
19:18:49 <stepcut> McManiaC: and look what trouble it brought you!
19:18:53 <McManiaC> yeh
19:18:54 <McManiaC> :D
19:19:00 <stepcut> why did you switch back?
19:19:10 <McManiaC> but now I can run two happstack/hack/whatever programms independent of each other \o/
19:19:22 <stepcut> yeah, that is why I have apache around
19:19:28 <stepcut> and to run wordpress for now
19:19:32 <McManiaC> yeh
19:19:56 <stepcut> gotta implement mod_php for happstack ;)
19:19:58 <McManiaC> I need a easy to use blog/similiar
19:20:03 <stepcut> (which is not all that hard I think..)
19:20:18 <McManiaC> but I kinda dislike wordpress & co
19:20:20 <McManiaC> :>
19:20:27 <stepcut> yeah
19:20:56 <McManiaC> http://github.com/mcmaniac/hdown ← if I had more time I'd work on this :D
19:21:42 <stepcut> I have one I wrote in happstack, but I wrote it the hardway, so it is not quite usable yet
19:22:56 <stepcut> the hard way == composed of several independent libraries instead of one monolithic app
19:23:03 <McManiaC> maybe I'll just add users to npaste, add markdown rendering for user pages and use that as a blog :D
19:23:10 <stepcut> hah
19:23:19 <stepcut> could you write BSD3 version of pandoc while you are at all?
19:23:25 <stepcut> s/at all/at it/ ?
19:23:31 <McManiaC> bsd3?
19:23:42 <stepcut> lisenced
19:24:04 <stepcut> licensed
19:24:06 <McManiaC> what license does pandoc use?
19:24:10 <stepcut> GPL
19:24:14 <McManiaC> I never thought much about licenses :S
19:24:28 <McManiaC> whats wrong with gpl?
19:24:32 <stepcut> GPL assumes I am evil, which offends me :)
19:24:41 <McManiaC> hmkay
19:24:41 <McManiaC> lol
19:28:17 <stepcut> plus it's arrogant. Even though pandoc is only a small portion of the code base my app is somehow 'derived from pandoc'. Even if the pandoc support is a compile time option.. that just doesn't make sense..
19:31:18 <sm> the pandoc author has released his work to folks that want to advance the gnu vision. What's arrogant about that ?
19:31:35 <stepcut> sm: :)
19:32:21 <stepcut> sm: because it's built largely on BSD3 code, yet his stuff's too good for that :p
19:32:29 <stepcut> sm: I'm mostly just joking around
19:33:03 <sm> ok.. I agree it's inconvenient at times
19:33:32 <mightybyte> Licensing libraries under the GPL strikes me as roughly analogous to Microsoft releasing Word with a license that says all documents you create with it are their property.
19:34:18 <sm> I also think it would be a pity for the haskell world to develop more misunderstanding and dislike for the GPL
19:34:43 <stepcut> the GPL is rooted in fear and distrust to start with..
19:34:46 <mightybyte> But don't get me wrong.  I generally agree with the idea of using the GPL for *programs* (to be clearly distinguished from libraries).
19:35:34 <sm> stepcut: have you read the FSF's GPL literature ?
19:35:40 <stepcut> sm: yes
19:36:11 <shapr> stepcut: I can't disagree with that, but then every experience I've had with companies has reinforced my distrust of them.
19:37:31 <sm> the GPL rightly did not trust the corporate world to play nice without some legal enforcement. That was obviously correct imho
19:38:38 <shapr> I've wished for an open source FPGA design stack for decades.
19:38:47 <shapr> Several have been started, Xilinx repeatedly shuts them down.
19:39:34 <shapr> The legal backing for Xilinx shutting them down is that they're targeting Xilinx hardware, or something to that effect.
19:39:36 <stepcut> sm: that depends on your definition of 'play nice' though
19:39:39 <mightybyte> shapr: I can understand where you're coming from there, but when you're writing a *free* library it seems to me that the whole point is to create something widely useful that will promote the most benefit.
19:40:18 <mightybyte> ...unless I have a specific for-profit motive, then I usually don't care if someone uses my library as the basis for something else closed source or for-profit.
19:40:28 <shapr> mightybyte: Yeah, I understand.. but my experience working in large companies says to me that they are currently too rooted in corporate selfishness for them to give back without legal repercussions.
19:40:35 <mightybyte> ...and a lot of times I feel the same way even when I do have a for-profit motive.
19:41:50 <shapr> Honestly, I used to be a BSD3 voter, but a few years ago I did a bunch of research for a blog article on GPL vs BSD3, and I ended up coming up pro-GPL.
19:42:28 <stepcut> shapr: but you still use emacs and not vi, right ?
19:42:40 <shapr> I do.
19:43:00 <stepcut> shapr: so, you're not all bad then ;)
19:43:25 <shapr> Is emacs BSD3?
19:43:30 <stepcut> no
19:44:11 <stepcut> just means you aren't one of those vi users :)
19:44:15 <shapr> I guess it seems to me that BSD is only a useful license because some companies are scared of giving their software back to the community.
19:44:17 <shapr> hah
19:45:02 <mightybyte> It seems to me that in recent years many companies have become significantly more "trustworthy" in that regard.
19:46:40 <shapr> It seems to me that software is math at some level; I think that's even more apparent in the Haskell world.
19:46:50 <mightybyte> ACTION agrees
19:47:19 <shapr> I don't have a problem with a someone creating and selling a product that requires resources to produce, like hardware.
19:47:32 <stepcut> software takes resources to create :(
19:47:44 <shapr> And at some level I don't have a problem with people selling software for the cost of the resources it takes to design it...
19:48:05 <shapr> But that seems to me to quickly turn into software as a service.
19:48:17 <stepcut> how do you feel about bands charging admission to their concerts?
19:48:48 <shapr> I don't mind, though I'd like to assassinate TicketMaster and scalpers.
19:49:23 <stepcut> if a band is playing for 100 people, and 10 more people show up -- it is no extra work for them.. is it fair to charge those last 10 people anyway?
19:49:26 <shapr> I guess I don't want any smart person to have to waste their time solving a problem that someone else has already solved.
19:49:46 <shapr> stepcut: Yeah, that's a point.
19:49:57 <shapr> That's an inconsistency in my beliefs...
19:49:59 <shapr> ACTION thinks about that.
19:50:36 <sm> the band has the right to decide that any way they want
19:50:48 <shapr> Sure, I agree.
19:51:06 <sm> and nobody is forced to come listen to them
19:51:20 <shapr> Along those lines, I've spent more money on bands that allow live taping and uploading to http://bt.etree.org/
19:52:17 <shapr> Some economic researchers had the idea to abolish copyright entirely (for digitally reproducible works), and setup distribution networks to every streetcorner.
19:52:24 <shapr> You pay $1 for a DVD worth of whatever...
19:52:44 <shapr> Artists could still make money that way.
19:52:45 <stepcut> I think that's called the internet..
19:52:54 <stepcut> how would artists make money?
19:53:07 <aavogt> are artists supposed to make money?
19:53:14 <shapr> Let's say you produce a hit single, a zillion people download your song.
19:53:24 <shapr> The distribution network then hands you a chunk of money to produce more songs.
19:54:06 <stepcut> shapr: there is only one distribution network?
19:54:18 <shapr> Maybe there are multiples, I don't think it would matter.
19:55:01 <stepcut> shapr: so there are lots of distribution networks, and they can all distribute the tracks with out having to pay royalties. But some of them are going to pay artists to write more songs that everyone else can distribute?
19:55:20 <shapr> Hm
19:55:36 <shapr> I like talking to people who poke logical holes in my arguments :-)
19:55:46 <stepcut> :)
19:56:00 <mightybyte> Hmmmm...
19:56:01 <mightybyte> ACTION is torn between liking copyright to preserve ownership for complex works like code, but not liking copyright for things like digital music where it's nice to not be sued for downloading a bit of data.
19:56:32 <shapr> At the same time, industries benefit dramatically from "piracy"!
19:56:54 <mightybyte> Exactly
19:56:58 <shapr> Microsoft would lose market share quickly if Windows could not be illegally copied.
19:57:10 <mightybyte> ...which is why I tend to be against copyright for digital music
19:57:16 <aavogt> they would give more free trials?
19:57:35 <shapr> aavogt: Yeah, but you don't get addicted to free trials, otherwise more people would use Linux.
19:57:45 <shapr> You get used to something and you don't want to change, because change takes effort.
19:58:03 <shapr> I have not learned Finnish because I didn't grow up using it, and two years of lessons wasn't enough to get it to stick in my head.
19:58:08 <shapr> Costs too much for me to change.
19:58:11 <mightybyte> Well, Microsoft's ownership of the code and people who understand Windows would still be a valuable asset.
19:58:25 <shapr> Most people grow up with Windows, and thus they use it.
19:58:55 <aavogt> well the only difference between pirating windows and legaly downloading some linux distro is that you think you're getting something more valuable when you pirate it
19:59:00 <shapr> I used to play CounterStrike lots on WINE, and for years I advocated running CS on WINE in Linux. I said "It doesn't cost anything!"
19:59:13 <shapr> One day somebody said "Shut up! Do you think any of us have ever paid for Windows?"
19:59:29 <aavogt> as in "if they can charge money for it, it must be good"
19:59:36 <shapr> Yeah, that's an interesting point.
19:59:50 <shapr> Transitive value?
20:00:02 <stepcut> aavogt: there was a study where people enjoyed wine more if they were told is was more expensive :)
20:00:08 <aavogt> but people do charge money for supporting free stuff anyways
20:00:44 <shapr> I'm one of those weirdos who does his very best to appreciate something on its own merit.
20:00:58 <McManiaC> 20:42     stepcut shapr: so, you're not all bad then ;)
20:01:05 <McManiaC> hey :D what about vim? :P
20:01:35 <stepcut> McManiaC: *shun*
20:02:46 <McManiaC> :P
20:02:48 <shapr> Habit is a strong force.
20:02:56 <shapr> If you get into the habit of using Windows, it's hard to change.
20:03:09 <McManiaC> I use emacs only with auctex
20:03:11 <shapr> Because of that, I pushed myself to switch to Linux in 1999.
20:03:12 <McManiaC> I *love* it
20:03:13 <mightybyte> ...especially for things that have a high barrier to entry.
20:03:17 <McManiaC> but theres nothing like coding in vim
20:03:18 <McManiaC> :)
20:03:19 <stepcut> if you didn't pay for something then you have little personal investment in it.. but if you exchanged something for it, then you are more likely to try to get the full benefit from it
20:03:28 <shapr> mightybyte: Right, exactly. So the best approach is to beat a high barrier as early as possible.
20:03:37 <shapr> Then you have more time in life to benefit from that thing.
20:03:41 <stepcut> so, charging people is really for their own benefit ;)
20:04:00 <mightybyte> shapr: Yep.  Which is probably why I'm still coding Haskell in vim instead of Yi or Emacs.
20:04:04 <shapr> heh
20:04:26 <aavogt> well Yi's vim emulation isn't too bad
20:04:31 <shapr> hej bonobo2
20:04:35 <shapr> tjenare!
20:04:38 <mightybyte> Yeah, I've been wanting to switch to yi
20:04:46 <shapr> I've tried it, but not recently.
20:04:47 <mightybyte> But documentation is ghastly.
20:04:56 <McManiaC> Yi is lacking mouse support =(
20:05:01 <McManiaC> actually vty is.
20:05:07 <shapr> Part of my problem is that I've built up years of habit in emacs, and GOBS of customizations.
20:05:13 <mightybyte> McManiaC: You're a vim user complaining about lack of mouse support?
20:05:18 <mightybyte> That's an oxymoron.
20:05:42 <shapr> bonobo2: Är du en kanal båt?
20:05:43 <McManiaC> mightybyte: I'm using vim for coding, ncmpcpp for music, xmonad as window manager, mutt for emails - and I still like my mouse
20:05:46 <McManiaC> :P
20:05:59 <McManiaC> shapr: oi! svedes? :D
20:06:11 <shapr> I use emacs, gnus, xmonad, and mpd bindings I wrote for emacs.
20:06:18 <bonobo2> shapr: the bad thing is that I'm not Swedish (yet) just living here for a moment :)
20:06:23 <shapr> Oh, where at?
20:06:30 <bonobo2> shapr: switch to English :) please :)
20:06:36 <shapr> I'm from the Swedish speaking part of Alabama!
20:06:43 <bonobo2> shapr: Sthlm
20:06:57 <shapr> awesome! Old Town? Sullen Tuna?
20:07:13 <bonobo2> shapr: Hornstull right now, so Sodermalm :)
20:07:27 <shapr> Ok, it's really called Sollentuna, but I love the idea of upset fish in the Swedish archipelago.
20:07:34 <bonobo2> yep, cool city in all possible aspects :)
20:07:44 <shapr> Ah, sodermalm
20:07:49 <shapr> I used to live in Hasselby Strand
20:07:49 <bonobo2> shapr: I love this place :)
20:07:54 <McManiaC> ACTION is moving to oslo in a year :D
20:07:55 <bonobo2> really?
20:08:16 <bonobo2> McManiaC: Oslo is village compared to Sthlm! :D
20:08:22 <McManiaC> :D
20:08:26 <shapr> Yeah, I lived six months in Stockholm, and five years in Boden (outside of Luleå) before that.
20:08:58 <bonobo2> I'm going to be here for another 2 months
20:09:04 <shapr> Student?
20:09:04 <bonobo2> then I'll see what happes
20:09:09 <bonobo2> nope
20:09:13 <bonobo2> trying to work
20:09:19 <bonobo2> not working right now
20:09:26 <bonobo2> trying to have my own bussiness :)
20:09:27 <shapr> What do you do?
20:09:33 <shapr> I did that...
20:09:37 <bonobo2> happs devel :) haha
20:09:47 <shapr> Seriously?
20:09:57 <shapr> Are you willing to do Erlang work?
20:10:11 <bonobo2> I did erlang just a week ago, right now since I can choose I'd like to do some Haskell
20:10:23 <shapr> You might want to check with John Hughes, he was looking for FP programmers for quviq a few years back.
20:10:31 <bonobo2> Erlang is really good, I would not mind do it again!
20:10:47 <shapr> What's your name? Anyone who does Haskell and Erlang must be a name I've heard before!
20:10:50 <shapr> I'm Shae Erisson
20:11:04 <shapr> Some people have even heard of me!
20:11:15 <bonobo2> Gracjan Polak
20:11:16 <McManiaC> haha
20:11:22 <shapr> Hm, I have heard that name...
20:11:30 <shapr> In blog posts maybe?
20:11:36 <bonobo2> yep, some stupid questions on haskell cafe :)
20:11:43 <bonobo2> gracjanpolak.wordpress.com
20:12:10 <bonobo2> if you understand polish.... :)
20:12:13 <shapr> Have you posted anything in English?
20:12:15 <shapr> I don't, sorry.
20:12:24 <bonobo2> nope
20:12:28 <shapr> I'm really only clueful in American and Swedish.
20:12:30 <bonobo2> but it isn't really anything new
20:12:44 <bonobo2> my blog is mostly translations or obviuos stuff
20:12:49 <shapr> I can get by in several others, but not enough to read about funktionella programmering.
20:12:59 <bonobo2> if I disciver something I'll do it in english :)
20:13:05 <shapr> cool!
20:13:22 <bonobo2> anyway I started happstack yesterday
20:13:31 <bonobo2> it did install on windows for me like charm!
20:13:35 <shapr> Yay!
20:13:38 <bonobo2> why isnt it used everywhere?
20:13:49 <stepcut> bonobo2: bad documentation
20:14:01 <bonobo2> I had much (like in MUCHO) biger problems with PHP when I last tried it
20:14:05 <shapr> HaPPS momentum?
20:14:10 <McManiaC> lack of people who are willing to write haskell ;)
20:14:35 <bonobo2> I know quite a lot of like 'if I only could write Haskell...."
20:14:37 <bonobo2> :D
20:14:43 <McManiaC> yeh
20:14:45 <McManiaC> *could*
20:14:55 <bonobo2> Erlang is close enough, thou :)
20:15:12 <shapr> Seems pretty different to me :-)
20:15:22 <shapr> I've never done much Erlang, could never really get comfortable with it.
20:15:23 <bonobo2> to me too
20:15:42 <bonobo2> but I find in still comparably different to Java :)
20:15:50 <McManiaC> I'm studying physics actually… and I already got an offer to work for our university :D
20:16:08 <bonobo2> I did work for university for3 years:)
20:16:09 <shapr> bonobo2: Good point
20:16:14 <bonobo2> it was cool, really
20:16:16 <shapr> Oh, I'd like to work for the university here.
20:16:26 <bonobo2> but then wasnt paying enough
20:17:05 <bonobo2> so I decided to look for something else, had really good job in C++, recently switched to Erlang, and now trying Haskell :)
20:17:10 <stepcut> in other news, happstack now has Serialize support for Data.Text
20:21:11 <McManiaC> whats that? :D
20:21:34 <shapr> I assume it means Read+Show instances can be serialized?
20:22:20 <stepcut> no..
20:22:42 <shapr> Oh
20:22:43 <bonobo2> I dont really use Data.Text in my app... should I?
20:22:48 <stepcut> it means the type Data.Text.Text can now be serialized. Where Text is a compact Unicode string representation.
20:22:50 <bonobo2> String seems good enough...
20:22:53 <shapr> I've never used Data.Text, should I?
20:23:21 <bonobo2> ByteString with UTF8 seems cool enough for me...
20:23:39 <stepcut> Data.Text requires 16-bits per character. String requires around 96-bits per character I think?
20:23:52 <shapr> That's a good reason.
20:24:24 <stepcut> bonobo2: using ByteStrings as Strings in not really that great. For example, length bs, will give you the number of bytes used to represent the string, not the length of the string itself
20:24:42 <stepcut> not the 'number of characters in the string itself'
20:25:16 <bonobo2> yes, I live in latin2 zone aka iso-8859-2, aka code page 1250, aka code page 852
20:25:43 <bonobo2> so my national characters mangled are quite normal to me :)
20:25:50 <stepcut> bonobo2: :)
20:26:29 <bonobo2> also 16bit is not enough to represent full unicode, utf8 surely is :)
20:26:38 <stepcut> bonobo2: utf-16
20:27:03 <stepcut> bonobo2: so, it's not exactly 16-bits all the time, but mostly..
20:27:28 <bonobo2> yes, then you get the surrogate pairs and all other stuff
20:27:50 <stepcut> bonobo2: though the internals are not user visible anyway. The point is, Text is relatively memory efficient type for accurately working with Unicode characters
20:27:51 <bonobo2> my problem with Data.Text is that 'length' there is not character length either
20:28:36 <bonobo2> stepcut: yes, it is
20:28:42 <stepcut> bonobo2: I believe that 'length' there will tell you the number of Char's required to represent the String?
20:28:50 <sm> haddock: Returns the number of characters in a Text.
20:29:07 <sm> sounds ok to me ?
20:29:30 <sm> ACTION hasn't used text yet, but hopes to soon
20:29:33 <bonobo2> stepcut: ByteString.Utf8.length does the same, doesn't it?
20:29:50 <stepcut> bonobo2: probably
20:31:01 <stepcut> i don't think it is wrong to use ByteString.Utf8, I just personally prefer Text :)
20:31:31 <bonobo2> stepcut: are you chineese? :D
20:31:44 <stepcut> also, if you ultimately want to use encodings besides utf-8, I think using Text is better
20:32:10 <bonobo2> there is no other encoding besides UTF-8!!
20:32:17 <bonobo2> heretic!
20:32:20 <stepcut> bonobo2: :)
20:32:47 <bonobo2> there is one true encoding!
20:33:03 <stepcut> bonobo2: well, that is true in happstack at the moment
20:33:10 <bonobo2> also insert your favourite theme from lord of the rings: to bind them all or something
20:36:29 <bonobo2> how do I contribute to happstack?
20:36:43 <bonobo2> seems I have already a couple of patches to do :D
20:36:47 <sm> write some docs !
20:37:15 <sm> or rather: implement a documentation *system*
20:37:22 <sm> random docs will just get out of date
20:37:30 <sm> ACTION cheers on bonobo2 
20:37:43 <bonobo2> sm: I find haddock pretty cool actually :)
20:37:58 <sm> yup.. how should happstack use it better ?
20:38:00 <bonobo2> if it had some samples around functions would be perfect for me
20:38:12 <sm> agreed, that would be great
20:38:42 <bonobo2> sm: better? just samples inside the *doc* of function in question
20:38:50 <bonobo2> tutorials are there
20:39:09 <bonobo2> everything from HAppS era is also there and is good enough
20:39:11 <sm> bonobo2: you mean http://happstack.com/tutorials.html ? have you tried them ?
20:39:23 <sm> maybe good enough if you already know what you are doing :)
20:40:04 <bonobo2> this one: http://tutorial.happstack.com/
20:40:08 <sm> if http://tutorial.happstack.com/ is all current and showing best practices, I stand corrected.. I'm asking cos I don't know
20:40:34 <bonobo2> is more than adequate :)
20:40:38 <stepcut> bonobo2: get the source from darcs, and send patches to the mailing list
20:40:57 <bonobo2> will do patches for sure
20:41:10 <stepcut> bonobo2: what are you patching?
20:41:13 <bonobo2> happstack new project creates app that does not compile :)
20:41:25 <stepcut> bonobo2: oh yeah, I heard about that
20:41:34 <stepcut> bonobo2: someone should fix that :)
20:41:50 <bonobo2> yes, there come my patches soon :)
20:49:21 <bonobo2> have a good night sleep shapr ochsa stepcut och sm
20:49:30 <bonobo2> I need to go
20:49:32 <stepcut> night
20:49:46 <bonobo2> yep, close to 22 here :)
20:49:56 <bonobo2> time for beer and bed :)
20:50:01 <bonobo2> bye
22:01:40 <shapr> How do I get pretty colored code with gitit?
22:03:08 <shapr> aha - http://gitit.net/Installing
22:07:06 <shapr> Anyone using gitit for blogging?
22:19:24 <shapr> Yay, pretty colored code!
22:28:45 <stepcut> not i
22:29:44 <sm> go shapr.. I set it up but decided against for now
22:37:16 <shapr> It works at least: http://www.scannedinavian.com:8080/BUG
22:37:33 <stepcut> nice
22:38:59 <stepcut> alright, created myself an account ;)
22:41:00 <shapr> :-)
22:41:17 <stepcut> I made some improvements for ya :)