00:48:07 <donri> phew, finally ported jmacro aeson
00:48:41 <donri> author asked me to do that before he releases the port to text
03:41:54 <stepkut> donri: nice
15:16:36 <parcs`> are there any type-safe IxSet packages out there? i created a thing and it looks promising, but i don't want to spend too much time on it if it's already been done before
16:36:03 <Lemmih> parcs`: There's HiggsSet.
17:28:48 <stepkut> I tweaked the crash course theme a bit... better? http://www.happstack.com/docs/crashcourse/HelloWorld.html#hello_world
17:38:17 <donri> well pt sans looks like a bitmap font on my system
17:38:40 <donri> for the headings i'd suggest having more margin-top than margin-bottom
17:39:33 <donri> still not in love with the colors of the syntax highlighting
17:39:39 <donri> but beyond all that i like it ;)
17:40:10 <donri> aww
17:41:22 <donri> i actually kind of think that the best webfonts are "monospace, serif, sans-serif" and others should only be used for design text and headings...
17:42:01 <donri> also it looks like the code boxes are much wider than the paragraphs
17:43:23 <donri> also i'd suggest adding some margin-bottom to the content div, those "next" links are quite close to the screen edge
17:44:37 <donri> maybe match the link color with the headings or something? the standard blue is a bit boring :)
19:36:25 <donri> stepkut: see log
19:36:30 <donri> you pinged out again :)
19:38:05 <stepkut> the web sucks
19:40:50 <stepkut> the code boxes are wider.. otherwise some of the code won't fit
19:43:04 <donri> :)
19:43:10 <donri> overflow:auto or somesuch?
19:43:17 <stepkut> hmm
19:44:31 <stepkut> that would give them scroll bars.. seems annoying to have to scroll horizontally to read the code
19:44:43 <donri> yea but only when the code overflows
19:45:06 <stepkut> doesn't make it not annoying..
19:45:23 <donri> maybe we could make the paragraphs as wide instead and use those css3 column stuff
19:45:39 <stepkut> ?
19:45:46 <donri> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS3_Columns
19:46:44 <stepkut> columns are neat.. but not sure how that would work with the code blocks
19:47:08 <donri> you'd group paragraphs between code blocks and columnize those, and not the code blocks
19:48:00 <stepkut> seems a bit weird.. especially since there are a lot of short paragraphs between code blocks?
19:48:17 <stepkut> pt sans looks like crap because you have some lame font hinting stuff enabled?
19:48:35 <stepkut> looks flippin' great on my machine
19:48:55 <donri> another option: white-space:pre-wrap and rely on the bird tracks to hint lines
19:49:17 <stepkut> :-/
19:50:43 <donri> yet another option: overflow:hidden and have some javascript on hover to expand the code block to the required width
19:51:24 <stepkut> it's pretty hard to hover on the ipad, etc
19:51:50 <donri> detect touch devices and fallback on some other solution ;)
19:52:26 <donri> could also expand on click or something
19:52:44 <stepkut> how about we just show the whole thing from the start?
19:53:04 <donri> but they're so wide :(
19:53:18 <donri> perhaps use a light background so they're not as noisy
19:57:36 <donri> the benefit of fonts like "sans-serif" is that every user will get a font that looks great on their particular setup
19:59:09 <stepkut> only if they have a great looking sans-serif by default
20:00:35 <donri> it's probably something that at least *renders* correctly
20:00:40 <donri> it doesn't have to be sexy :p
20:00:56 <donri> sexy is for design and headings not content text
20:03:38 <stepkut> i want all the things sexy
20:04:24 <donri> but it ends up only sexy for you
20:05:21 <stepkut> turns up sexy for people that leave the defaults alone, yes?
20:06:04 <stepkut> google web fonts and pt sans could not have been invented solely to make things look good to only me :)
20:07:15 <donri> sexy for people who use the same OS as you and leave defaults alone (hackers tend not to ;P)
20:07:29 <donri> google webfonts is great for designer text and headings as I said :)
20:07:47 <stepkut> I use Windows 7, OS X, and Linux.. looks great on all those..
20:08:07 <donri> i just tried various font settings, it looks crap with all variants :p
20:08:18 <stepkut> sounds like your system is broken
20:08:37 <donri> lies
20:11:25 <donri> http://i.imgur.com/esgQJ.png
20:11:46 <stepkut> yep. Your system is broken.
20:12:07 <donri> lies, pt sans is broken
20:12:12 <donri> look how sharp ubuntu mono looks :)
20:12:27 <donri> at least use the ubuntu font for the paragraphs :(
20:14:54 <donri> i don't even think pt sans looks that good, even ignoring how it renders
20:15:17 <stepkut> looks like this on mine, http://i.imgur.com/KsB7I.png
20:15:48 <donri> that's not particularly good either, looks bold
20:17:19 <stepkut> less bold than ubuntu, http://i.imgur.com/CxIRT.png
20:17:40 <donri> here's with ubuntu, http://i.imgur.com/U8Ohy.png and how i think text should render
20:17:49 <donri> well your system is broken ;)
20:18:18 <stepkut> >:(
20:18:26 <donri> this is why i favor "sans-serif" because everyone gets it the way they like it or are used to
20:18:30 <luite> donri: wow both look pretty bad
20:18:45 <luite> the pngs that is, the site itself is ok
20:18:52 <donri> stupid osx fanatics
20:19:26 <luite> actually i hope everyone will follow apples lead and "HiDPI" graphics will be on every laptop and desktop screen in a few years
20:19:40 <stepkut> luite: which pngs? and what does the site look like to you?
20:19:48 <donri> apples "lead" where fonts render bold and blurry?
20:20:19 <luite> donri: no where resolution is more or less quadrupled, making most font rendering issues a thing of the past
20:20:52 <luite> i'm not terribly happy with the blurriness in low resolution OS X
20:21:15 <donri> but you think my second screenshot looks bad
20:21:25 <luite> yes
20:21:32 <donri> why?
20:21:39 <stepkut> donri: the Ubuntu font looks nothing like that on my ubuntu laptop or OS X
20:21:47 <luite> donri: because of inconsistent line widths
20:22:13 <donri> stepkut: yea ubuntu's default isn't full hinting, ironic since their font is so well hinted
20:22:33 <donri> luite: line widths have little to do with the font?
20:22:39 <luite> donri: "Our first happstack" <- the O and the curvy part of the u look much fatter than the two verticals in the 'u'
20:22:47 <luite> donri: it has to do with the rendering of the font
20:23:04 <donri> ah that's true
20:23:15 <donri> i'm only looking at how sharp the shapes are rendered
20:23:32 <donri> without looking like bitmaps (pt sans, renders "too" sharp)
20:23:34 <luite> and in "Hello World", the H looks much crisper than the "W" for example
20:23:47 <luite> but the W looks fatter
20:24:00 <donri> yea, the "W" never looked quite right in ubuntu mono
20:24:00 <luite> OS X trades some crispness for more consistency
20:24:48 <luite> but with a 220+ dpi screen, it should be more than crisp enough
20:24:52 <stepkut> if neither Ubuntu nor OS X enables full font hinting by default, I am not sure I should design for that
20:24:57 <luite> i should say ppi
20:24:58 <donri> I JUST FEEL LIKE I'M READING TEXT IN CAPS WHEN FONTS ARE RENDERED SO BOLDLY
20:25:29 <donri> stepkut: i'm saying that you shouldn't design at all for content text :)
20:25:45 <donri> "sans-serif" is a great font on all systems!
20:26:14 <luite> it's best to render all glyphs to bitmaps and replace content with just a series of <img src>
20:26:35 <donri> luite: needs moar flash
20:26:44 <luite> that will teach those hipsters with their retina display, make text unreadably small
20:27:33 <luite> actually someone also complained about the yesodweb site font, apparently it renders incredibly uglily in chrome on xp
20:27:48 <luite> newer windows are fine
20:28:17 <stepkut> ACTION is going to add some javacsript to detect donri's browser and change the font
20:28:24 <donri> :)
20:28:38 <donri> #ifdef DONRIS_WEIRD_FEDORA_SYSTEM
20:28:56 <luite> right, that was also going to be my "fix" for the yesodweb problem :p
20:48:49 <donri> i'm gonna use slight hinting for a while just to try it
20:49:04 <stepkut> heh
20:49:58 <donri> although pt sans requires completely disabling hinting, even slight hinting and it renders like in my shot
20:50:47 <donri> stupid luite now i can't help but noticing the width of the big O in ubuntu
20:50:51 <stepkut> how about Gudea
20:51:07 <stepkut> I updated the site
20:51:27 <stepkut> ugh, act it looks kind of funky
20:51:33 <stepkut> the kerning is all wacky
20:52:15 <stepkut> i switched to Ubuntu now
20:52:18 <donri> http://i.imgur.com/SyVtq.png
20:55:03 <donri> webfonts should include screenshots with different hint settings
20:56:18 <stepkut> :)
20:57:15 <stepkut> everyone should just the one true font hint settings.. but for that to happen people would have to first stop being stupid about patents
20:58:15 <stepkut> anyway, I have now reformatted all the code to fit in a 45em box
20:58:35 <stepkut> (except in the I18N section where there are some oversized code boxes because you can't put line wraps in the translation files)
21:06:12 <stepkut> does it look super-awesome yet?
21:08:46 <donri> getting there :)
21:09:19 <donri> i'd still like less margin-bottom for headlines (less than the margin-top)
21:09:27 <donri> makes things look more "grouped"
21:09:28 <stepkut> :-/
21:10:35 <donri> also you're using Vollkorn without loading it
21:11:40 <stepkut> crap.. got too crazy with the deletions
21:11:58 <donri> :)
21:12:05 <stepkut> try now
21:12:17 <stepkut> I do like less margin underneath the titles
21:12:33 <donri> nice!
21:12:33 <stepkut> well, I liked it either equal or a lot less.. a little less seemed weird
21:12:46 <donri> maybe less margin between headlines
21:12:54 <donri> h1 > h2, or however you select for that
21:13:55 <donri> h1 + h2
21:14:01 <donri> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/selectors_adjacent.htm
21:14:37 <donri> and yea it's probably h2 + h3, mainly
21:15:12 <stepkut> hmm
21:15:50 <stepkut> not liking it so far
21:17:26 <donri> I think it's much better
21:18:06 <donri> you could add like a border-bottom spanning width:100% to h2's or something?
21:20:21 <stepkut> like this? (I hope not..)
21:22:01 <donri> no, the width of the content!
21:22:10 <donri> lol
21:22:32 <stepkut> updated
21:22:38 <donri> as if there was a <hr> after each <h2>
21:22:49 <donri> yea something like that
21:23:10 <donri> possibly something more interesting
21:23:14 <stepkut> hmm
21:23:20 <stepkut> it's too much I think
21:23:32 <donri> maybe
21:24:23 <donri> i just don't like all the white space between headings, but without that margin or *anything* it looks potentially like the h2 and h3 form one single heading+subheading, distinct from the following h3's
21:25:50 <donri> perhaps a border in some subtle gray and further away from the heading so it doesn't cross over letters like "p"
21:30:58 <donri> or maybe
21:31:08 <donri> have less margin-top for h3's overall
21:36:03 <stepkut> gotta go to a meeting, bbl