03:42:15 <republican_devil> whos got a happs pwoered blog site I can use?
03:42:22 <republican_devil> is darcs as nice as git now?
03:42:24 <republican_devil> or slower?
03:52:52 <donri> republican_devil: http://clckwrks.com/
03:53:25 <donri> republican_devil: darcs is slower than git, but darcs-2 is much faster than darcs-1
03:54:26 <republican_devil> do you use git or darcs2?
03:55:01 <donri> i use both
04:14:36 <stepkut> clckwrks.com is were its at, but if you are just getting started you should consider using the
04:14:39 <stepkut> -dev branch
04:15:06 <republican_devil> why dev branch?
04:15:14 <stepkut> it will be the released branch later this week
04:15:23 <republican_devil> hm
04:15:28 <stepkut> and it contains significant improvements
04:15:35 <republican_devil> I really need to learn more haskell.
04:15:47 <stepkut> :)
04:16:18 <republican_devil> is haskell more fun than lisp?
04:16:25 <stepkut> i think so
04:20:04 <stepkut> clckwrks is not totally awesome yet -- but it is getting there -- and is the most advanced Haskell blogging platform that I know of
04:20:47 <stepkut> ultimately, it will support one-click installs of plugins and themes on a running server with zero-coding knowledge required
04:22:23 <republican_devil> I can make a static blog if I can edit html files with 4 tags.
04:22:33 <republican_devil> input forms and file uploads are different
04:22:38 <republican_devil> that takes some real code
04:22:42 <republican_devil> and dynamic interaction
04:22:53 <republican_devil> hmmmmmmmmm
04:23:14 <republican_devil> http://clckwrks.com/clck/view-page-slug/8/why hmmm
04:23:38 <republican_devil> could one move a big site like amazon onto happs given a  lot of nice hardware?
04:24:48 <stepkut> the design of happs and happstack has been heavily influenced by studying the experience reports of places like amazon, ebay, facebook, etc
04:25:35 <stepkut> but, to do a really large site, more effort needs to be put into the replication and sharding aspects of acid-state -- or you would need to use something more traditional like memcache and a horribly abused sql backend
04:26:29 <stepkut> places like facebook tend do to things like only put two columns in their tables, disable transactions, and do the joins in PHP
04:27:58 <stepkut> i think it is unlikely you could 'move a big site like amazon' to happstack .. or anything else. facebook is stuck with PHP because it is damn near impossible to move to anything at all once you are that ingrained.. instead they have had to write PHP optimizing compilers and the like
04:28:40 <stepkut> big sites like those tend to be heavily customized for their particular needs -- and built over a long time.. so, you could certainly start a small site with happstack, and grow it large overtime
04:29:53 <stepkut> ACTION is off to sleep now.
04:30:11 <donri> a lot of facebook is not php
04:30:24 <donri> even if the url says .php it might not be :p
04:30:46 <stepkut> indeed, they use a lot of things.. including Haskell
04:31:12 <stepkut> last I checked, php was still a majority of the code though.. but that could be different now
04:31:28 <donri> duno. it's certainly the case that a lot of it is php anyway
04:31:44 <donri> but a lot that isn't, also :)
04:32:24 <stepkut> a lot of it isn't happstack.. I am pretty sure about that part
04:32:57 <republican_devil> heh
04:33:13 <republican_devil> so what about different acid states on different severs
04:33:22 <donri> republican_devil: that's fine
04:33:23 <republican_devil> and each happs handling a part of the whole?
04:33:57 <donri> there's support for a client-server model in acid-state
04:34:35 <stepkut> republican_devil: well.. that's the part that still needs to be done.. we have had replication working in the acid-state predecessor, but we don't have sharding yet. In acid-state, at present, there is only remote server-client.
04:34:40 <donri> so you can have a single happs site with multiple states on multiple servers
04:35:20 <donri> but you don't get any ACID guarantees between separate states, which is often fine but not always
04:35:41 <republican_devil> hm
04:35:54 <republican_devil> happs is fast right? and acid state si blazing fast right?
04:38:31 <republican_devil> well I can probably worry about overloading my 8 core amd64 running freebsd with 16g ram box, after i program it to make a nice site someone can use
04:38:37 <republican_devil> watch out craigslist!!!
04:38:44 <republican_devil> :)
04:39:19 <republican_devil> I think basic functions of net of showing a few bits of text and allowing people to find others and compare prices are nicer than fancy graphics and javascript crap
04:42:14 <donri> republican_devil: of the popular three frameworks, happstack has the slowest server in haskell. which means it handles about 9500 requests per second.
04:42:53 <donri> (there's ongoing work for a server rewrite)
04:43:40 <republican_devil> !!
04:43:44 <donri> wait, there is an amd64 with 8 cores?
04:43:48 <republican_devil> :)
04:44:01 <republican_devil> we have the technology!!
04:44:09 <donri> oh right opteron
04:44:11 <republican_devil> all I gota do is READ to learn HOW to use it!
04:44:13 <republican_devil> no no
04:44:31 <republican_devil> amd64 uh athlon x4 965 3.8ghz each
04:44:41 <donri> ah, that's 4 cores
04:44:52 <republican_devil> well my current box is 4 core 8g ram
04:45:03 <republican_devil> I could easily buy 16 g ram 8 core amd 64 fx
04:45:41 <republican_devil> http://www.pricewatch.com/gallery/computer_systems_no_os/fx_8150 and could actually grab 32g ram
04:45:48 <republican_devil> without breaking 1000$
04:45:52 <donri> oh right bulldozer
04:46:31 <donri> i just upgraded my desktop to 6 cores / 16g ram
04:46:48 <republican_devil> wow
04:47:01 <republican_devil> I had windows 3.1 box with netscape and 4m ram
04:47:09 <republican_devil> see how far wev come?
04:47:10 <donri> those were the days
04:47:48 <republican_devil> forth programmers showed me a mouse that had a gui os
04:48:00 <republican_devil> in the mouse
04:48:10 <republican_devil> freeky
04:48:19 <donri> my mom only recently dumped the old desktop we got in '99. youtube videos played on that with about half a frame a second
04:48:51 <donri> by comparison youtube videos play in HD with no lag on most smartphones :p
04:50:10 <republican_devil> coputer draws a color frame=a pic
04:50:15 <republican_devil> then redraws next one
04:50:18 <donri> it looked funny because she had a somewhat new lcd monitor but that old computer
04:50:21 <republican_devil> logically it seems pure simplicity
04:50:36 <republican_devil> I probly need a new monitor
04:50:47 <republican_devil> I got liek 15 inch thingy
04:50:52 <republican_devil> flat but not that thin
04:51:02 <republican_devil> freebsd and archlinux kick butt
04:51:13 <republican_devil> but I keep win7 on the big box to play games
04:51:26 <republican_devil> myth2 +baldurs gate trilogy
04:56:20 <republican_devil> with haskell you should be able to make a more complex site with far less code right?
04:57:15 <donri> maybe. depends what you're comparing against and what the site is
04:58:38 <republican_devil> ok
04:58:58 <republican_devil> lets say blockbuster.com
04:59:28 <donri> well it's really hard to give a generic answer
04:59:30 <republican_devil> movies, rental, buy, or mail, prices, cateories, fan reviews, coming attractions n stuf
05:00:03 <donri> yes, haskell code can be terse and encourages reusability, but then there might be libraries lacking that other languages have
05:01:07 <republican_devil> well one question is what about taking online payments?
05:01:13 <republican_devil>  is that easy?
05:01:20 <republican_devil> and what kind of libs are lacking?
05:04:47 <donri> stepkut had some package for online payments in the US
05:05:21 <donri> i don't know what libraries might be missing, but some other languages just have many more
05:05:34 <republican_devil> well if I can do web and take money
05:05:36 <republican_devil> im done
05:05:37 <republican_devil> :)
05:06:14 <republican_devil> there are some lisp web frameworks but I dunno some seem unfinished
05:06:26 <republican_devil> and aidaweb in smalltalk seems kinda cool
05:06:26 <republican_devil> but
05:06:38 <republican_devil> happs has acidstate which is way awesome
05:11:30 <donri> acid-state is actually not tied to happstack in any meaningful way
05:11:44 <donri> it's documented and supported in some packages though
05:16:14 <republican_devil> i love www.prevayler.org
05:16:20 <republican_devil> I think its the future.
05:16:31 <republican_devil> smalltalk simply uses the image
05:16:34 <republican_devil> I am told
05:16:54 <republican_devil> but i expect happs to handle raelly complex stuff right?
05:18:20 <donri> sure
05:19:29 <republican_devil> http://werc.cat-v.org/ this is also interesting in the simplicity unixy way
13:03:16 <tazjin> TH-free templating, what is the current trend? :)
13:03:54 <tazjin> Does HSP use any TH?
13:04:12 <donri> tazjin: hsp can be used as either a preprocessor or a QQ these days
13:04:36 <tazjin> Okay. In my current project TH crashes the linker (I'm doing some weird things to link Objective-C and Haskell together)
13:04:42 <donri> hehe
13:04:47 <tazjin> and I don't have the time to investigate that (it has to be done on Friday ;D)
13:05:04 <donri> blaze-html is also TH free
13:05:47 <donri> there's always heist too...
13:05:47 <tazjin> Yeah I know, but there'll be a designer involved
13:06:04 <donri> designer might like heist the most
13:06:11 <donri> but maybe you won't :D
13:06:18 <tazjin> That is the issue ;D
13:06:43 <tazjin> But if I use HSP as a preprocessor, can I store the templates in external files?
13:06:51 <tazjin> (disclaimer: I haven't used HSP yet :P)
13:07:07 <donri> hm there is some support for something like that in hsp, haven't used it
13:07:44 <donri> oh btw latest hsp is kinda broken at the moment so you'll need to grab the previous version series
13:10:56 <tazjin> 0.7.1?
13:11:44 <tazjin> What do you mean by broken? ;P
13:12:47 <tazjin> ah I see, doesn't support happstack-hsp. ok
13:19:03 <donri> well the new hsx2hs preprocessor generates code that isn't compatible with the new hsp :p
13:19:27 <donri> hsp 0.7 and the hsx package should be fine
13:23:51 <tazjin> GHC seems to ignore the flag that says "run through trhsx", hrrmhmm
13:26:33 <tazjin> ah, it needs to be indented. glöm det! :)
13:28:01 <donri> \o/
13:30:50 <tazjin> Can you point me to an example project using HSP? I prefer looking at some real code
13:35:11 <donri> tazjin: how about http://hub.darcs.net/stepcut/clckwrks-dev
13:37:31 <tazjin> Hrm, now I'm getting tons of OverlappingInstances errors even though -XOverlappingInstances is set.
13:37:40 <tazjin> Somehow this feels unclean ;p
13:38:53 <donri> yeah that's an annoying part of hsp
13:39:12 <donri> it usually helps to write type signatures
13:40:27 <tazjin> Yeah I think I got it running
13:40:56 <tazjin> the worst part about this is that XCode does the building and it hides the build logs for you if you compile with GHC, so you have to click several times to get the actual errors >.>
13:41:34 <donri> needs moar vim
13:42:24 <tazjin> Yes, but I have to use tons of Apple crap right now which is really annoying
13:42:56 <donri> are they forcing apples down your throat at spotify
13:43:01 <tazjin> (I cannot even begin to describe how much I despise Objective-C, XCode and everything that is related to that)
13:43:11 <tazjin> No, this is the Hackweek and I can do what I want
13:43:24 <tazjin> but I had the choice of either fighting against audio stuff manually or using CoreAudio on OS X
13:43:36 <tazjin> and considering how bad audio stuff can be I took the lesser of the two evils ;D
13:57:26 <tazjin> HSP's error messages are horrendous >:0
14:52:58 <donri> in deed
14:54:23 <tazjin> It also seems to swallow other errors, or am I imagining that?
14:54:38 <tazjin> As in "Oh you forgot a liftIO? Enjoy your overlapping instances!"
15:03:04 <donri> duno but i could see that happening yes
15:03:38 <donri> it's the sad side of type inference and probably made worse by overlapping instances
15:08:45 <tazjin> I have a feeling I'm not getting productive fast enough with HSP
15:09:45 <donri> yea, it's a powerful tool once you get it, but it's a complex beast :(
15:10:17 <donri> have you read the chapter in the crash course?
15:10:37 <tazjin> These error messages make my head explode. I want something simpler for this, maybe Moustache
15:11:09 <donri> @hackage hastache
15:11:10 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hastache
15:12:46 <tazjin> Heh, nice. Hmm
15:12:52 <tazjin> I remember seeing a new templating thing on Reddit a few months ago
15:12:53 <donri> @hackage mustache2hs
15:12:53 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/mustache2hs
15:12:57 <tazjin> but I can't seem to find it again
17:13:55 <stepcut> tazjin: yes, the error messages are horrible -- though, once you understand how to read them, they are all pretty trivial. The plan is to use the haskell type extensions library to create more sensible error messages
17:14:25 <stepcut> alas, I niklas patches for hsx2hs.. but he has not released a new version yet
17:15:43 <stepcut> with HSP, you can actually put your templates in 'external' files that start with an opening <html> tag.. and trhsx will do something a little sensible
17:15:49 <stepcut> but we want to improve that functionality